各位老师，说说您心目中的终极德国怀表组合

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-6 23:17
闹兄厉害，有这种钻研态度一定可以在怀表收藏路上勇猛精进.
坊间传言，德国银夹板的朗格1A机芯 ...

这位前辈的原文在此：
I have been reading a bit more on Lange Grossmann and Assmann. Lange top grade watches have a few features that the other Glasshutte makers, and, for that matter, no one else had.

These include grooves in the chaton settings to adjust the cap jewels and curved pallet jewel faces. This is why Lange is usually considered the best of the Germans and they are observable when you know what to look for. Grossmann was very famous and his watches are considered more rare so they carry a permium too. That leaves Assmann the odd man out but they too are very fine. The Germans also ran time trials which contributes to their prestige.


Watch quality depends on how you measure it so comparisons are a nice way to start a discussion or argument but are hard to settle. There are very few venues where the differnt nations and makers went head to head against objective standards. One was Kew/Teddington. A few American makers made the top 50, mostly Waltham as did a few German makers but the English initially dominated by about 1900 the Swiss had pretty well taken over. However a few months after the trial or one slightly less than first class cleaning it's all random.

There are lots of ways to assess watch quality but to m,e the escapement and balance are the essence of the watch. The English, Germans and Swiss did things on teh lever that were almost never done on American watches and when on an American watch I suspect Swiss parts. My vote for the only American watch with all the quality features is the Edward Howard becuase of its escapement and special free sprung balance wheel.

German makers often made the essential escapement parts from aliminum bronze which has some theoretical advantages. That was part of the Grossmann escapement. At the top end the English, Swiss, and Germans put moreeffort into final adjustment than any American makers, except possiby the prestige models, like the Edward Howard, Premier Maximus, special Gruens among others. This adjustment is invisible except as performance in controlled trials. A few years of wear or slight drop or a cleaning and its mostly gone.

As much as I like these features, many of the top Kew watches has single roller escapements so these features may not have made much difference, at least at the time trials.

As to Assmann being involved with Lange movements, I believe all the Glasshutte makers bought rough movements, ebauches, from the same source. They cooperated to some extent and may have designed these started sets by consensus. This is covered in some detail in Dittrich's books on lLasshutte watch making but they are not handy at the moment. As I recall DIttrich set up a movemetn classsificaiton system that applies to all the Glasshutte makers.

--------Dr. Jon, registered user of NAWCC

我试试找个比我英文更好的朋友把这段文字更准确地翻译出来，您看怎样？

多谢闹兄，这些知识太难得了，值得精读。

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-9 02:34
多谢闹兄，这些知识太难得了，值得精读。

坛子上要是有英文高手的话，就把这段话翻译过来吧，我怕自己翻译得不好

nomorewatch 发表于 2012-8-10 10:30
坛子上要是有英文高手的话，就把这段话翻译过来吧，我怕自己翻译得不好

舍兄其谁

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-10 01:27
舍兄其谁

当然是SCHEN，陈淞宁，陈大官人了。他的英文水平可以在北美表圈玩得翻天覆地，而且又没有架子，就是忙了点。。。

看来还是朗格1A的德国银版本好了，就算我能力再强，陀飞轮没意思，其他的更加犯不上。

如果他国怀表同类作品中有比朗格1A工艺，用料，价格和构图更优者的话，我就完全不考虑德国怀表了

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-9 02:34
多谢闹兄，这些知识太难得了，值得精读。

这是来自另一位前辈的观点：

高路云阿斯曼的机心是不纯正的，因为它的擒纵叉平衡方式是美式编制的，而且用上了美式叉石以便调教。
此外，这款机心用上了不必要的调整器（蜗牛微调？）和分列式甲板，也许在今天的眼光看来，这是技术进步。（这家伙的眼光有点过分守旧？）

原文在此：Gruen Assmanns are contaminated in a way by Gruen's specifying counter balanced pallet with American style pallet jewels for easier adjustment, I was told, and unnecessary complicated regulator. Also with split plate; all for easier servicing perhaps, so might be considered improvements

nomorewatch 发表于 2012-8-30 10:06
这是来自另一位前辈的观点：

高路云阿斯曼的机心是不纯正的，因为它的擒纵叉平衡方式是美式编制的，而 ...

要在美国玩得开当然要用美国元素了，何况当时的美国表业是先进性代表嘛。蜗牛微调为什么不必要？这点可不明白，朗格用的鹅颈微调不也是美国的专利，难道也是不必要？分离式夹板更方便制作，绝对是设计上的实用性考虑。
不过百花齐放也好，如果全世界的表迷的想法是一模一样的，那全世界的表也会一模一样了。

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-29 18:18
要在美国玩得开当然要用美国元素了，何况当时的美国表业是先进性代表嘛。蜗牛微调为什么不必要？这点可不 ...

这家伙思路很像极端正统派的犹太人，非常守旧

nomorewatch 发表于 2012-8-30 10:44
这家伙思路很像极端正统派的犹太人，非常守旧

而且他也有说得不对的地方，阿斯曼高路云的擒纵是纯正德国设计，乃德国殿堂级制表大师Moritz Grossman先生之作，限位钉设置在擒纵叉平衡翼的两侧，跟瑞士的设计都不同。

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-29 19:24
而且他也有说得不对的地方，阿斯曼高路云的擒纵是纯正德国设计，乃德国殿堂级制表大师Moritz Grossman先生 ...

值得注意的是，说这话的那个家伙手上有顶级的朗格，纯正阿斯曼和葛斯曼的机心。
看过图片之后，觉得这家伙还是太过火了点，之前他还说装备这些机心的表出10万也值得，简直吹牛。

nomorewatch 发表于 2012-8-30 11:59
值得注意的是，说这话的那个家伙手上有顶级的朗格，纯正阿斯曼和葛斯曼的机心。
看过图片之后，觉得这家 ...

推荐朗海涅给他吧，不过可不止10万，不知道他说美金还是人民币？

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-29 20:02
推荐朗海涅给他吧，不过可不止10万，不知道他说美金还是人民币？

NAWCC的货币单位当然是美金了
郎海涅太贵了，不值那个价钱。

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-5 16:57
艾斯曼（Assmann）的创始人娶了阿道夫朗格的女儿，所以说两家是姻亲。艾斯曼也是德国顶级品牌中最早玩 ...

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.p ... -%28Ausman%29-Gruen
这帖子里有阿斯曼和其他欧洲心的讨论，钟博士还提及，江诗丹顿的铁路表才是最顶级的混血铁路表，是真的么？

nomorewatch 发表于 2012-9-13 14:00
http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?93096-Fine-Assmann-%28Ausman%29-Gruen
这帖子里有阿斯曼和其他欧 ...

见过有VC机芯的BAll，可以说是VC里面的高级水平，但不是十分惊艳，钟博士的推崇估计是受到VC威名的影响吧，艾斯曼高路云的手工水平不会比VC差（如果不说更好的话）。

xhandy 发表于 2012-9-12 22:26
见过有VC机芯的BAll，可以说是VC里面的高级水平，但不是十分惊艳，钟博士的推崇估计是受到VC威名的影响吧 ...

http://watchlead.com/wbbs/forum. ... amp;page=2#lastpost
兄弟有何高见？

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-29 19:24
而且他也有说得不对的地方，阿斯曼高路云的擒纵是纯正德国设计，乃德国殿堂级制表大师Moritz Grossman先生 ...

原来说这番话的人正是12寸！他在NAWCC的ID叫做artbissell！

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-3 01:09
朗格1A级德国银夹板的版本！再往上的复杂款价格太高，跟瑞士高端表比较没有优势，一只二问的朗格跟三问PP差 ...

其实我一直想知道，高露云阿斯曼算不算德国表？机心是在德国做的吧？

xhandy 发表于 2012-8-29 19:24
而且他也有说得不对的地方，阿斯曼高路云的擒纵是纯正德国设计，乃德国殿堂级制表大师Moritz Grossman先生 ...

说到擒纵，钟博士给出的信息非常详细，先发个原文，容后再译：Re: how many types of escapements have really been continued today except the Swiss l

"Better" is a tricky term for use with watch escapements. While the detent, spring and pivoted, produce the best results in lab settings they do not do well in rough pocket wear.

The Swiss lever, in my view, took over becuase it provides the best combination of lab and rough use results, along with ease of manufacture and adjustment. IT seems ot hold up well to minor abuswe and will run even with slightly bend pivots. Usually this robustness is good.

M Grossmann wrote a terrific book "A Theoretialc and Practical Treatise on the Lever Escapment" is available in several forms as a free download.

The English and a few Swiss consitnued ot experiiment with the Daniels over and away the most successful recent attempt to better the Swiss lever.

BTW I beleive a Swiss lever has these features
1) Straight line lay out
2) Dividied lift with club teeth on the escape wheel
3) Visible pallet jewels
4) Double roller

The staight line layout provides the best view of operation with facilitates adjustment when needed
The club tooth escape wheel is far more resitistat to wear than the English "ratchet tooth or pointed tooth. The club tooth also lends itself to oil holding goodies such as raised teeth and retention holswe as used by Breguet who use it first to my knowledge.

The visible really means that the pallets are held by their sides making them adjustable from the top on a heated surface making setting them a lot easier than on an English style. It also shows off the jewels which require removal of the lever to see them on an English watch. Its better looking at least to me.

Whether the double roller is part of a Swiss lever is debateable and if someone really knows better I will accept correction. The benefit of the double roller is that its safety action takes place on a smaller radius for less disturbance than unlocking and impulse which are at alarger radius. Less energy is lost on unlocking and more is given on impulse. The down side of the double roller is that the end of the lever is a heavier and its inertial redices escapement efficiency. For thsi reason the single roller often did better in time trials. Sibngle roller sare alos susceptible to loss of safety action leading to mislocking (Its very thin pin can bend) . US railroads insisted on double rollers once they were widely available in the probably correct belief that they did better in railroad hard use.

This is a complex history with very little authorativive information in books.

Grossman is very good on theory and readily available, but it dates from 1869 and the Swiss lever was not the emerged thing it was until the 1990's. Kemp's The English Fusee Lever Watch has a lot on the evolution but admits ignorance on the final emergence. This is a scarce book but worth looking to find.

In terms of departures from the Swiss lever, the most commong today is the Daniels Co axisl but the Freak which we discusssed and an Audemars Piguet variant have recently been put inot top grade watches. These are not going to get anything like the use that the Swiss lever so their success is not so clear. These are variants.

As to continuing production, I think the cylinder and possibly the American duplex survided the longest as alternatives and the English lever held on possibly up to World War II in very small production.

One other survivor I failed ot to include that began as a very high end and went very low was the pin pallet escapement. It is very amusing to contrast Grossmann's view on it with todays complete disdain for this variant.

One other "odd ball" was the DeLong Escapement which is very rare in Illinois and Ball watches and was later used in a much later and widely produced Timex watch.

I do not know what is in modern cheap mechanical watches but the pin pallet was dominant until very recently. The overwhelming majority were robust but Grossmann has a lot of preaise for the escapement. The DeLong was a jeweled pin pallet.

I have ben careful to call tehse pin pallet becuase a few variants have pins in differnt parts of their lever but the pin pallet. sometimes also called the Roskopf has the advanatage that its parts can be build by failry simple machines. Its robustness is the attraction allowing it to work in a loosley built watch.

The problem is that they accumulated dust at critical points in the mechanism which are hard to remove. These machine made watches are held together with bent tabs and are very hard to disassemble and clean.

I suspect that a carefully built watch with high precision fits would rival a Swiss lever in various performance areas. Its bad reputation keep serious makers from trying it. That it will work in a loosely built watch does not mean it is not capable of high perofrmance. In the early days of detached levers, the table roller has a similar "image" problem but dedicated makers later took many Observatory **s with table rollers. I suspect that if true mechanical watch timing trails were re-opened some adventurous maker could win with a pin pallet.